Truth Unveiled: Mark Shaw on the Shocking Connection Between JFK, Monroe, & Dorothy Kilgallen

Discover the hidden connections in America's most controversial historical events with guest Mark Shaw, the investigative journalist whose unwavering quest for truth has led him to publish over 30 impactful books. From the enigmatic deaths of Marilyn Monroe and Dorothy Kilgallen to the intricate web of the JFK assassination, Shaw brings his unique perspective as a former criminal defense lawyer to our conversation, providing insights that challenge the official narratives. His spiritual journey from the courtroom to the typewriter reveals the power of serendipity and the importance of following one's curiosity—a trait shared with the late, great Kilgallen.

Venture into the shadowy intricacies of power, betrayal, and organized crime as we unravel Joe Kennedy's alleged mafia ties and the subsequent political fallout. Shaw's firsthand experiences and close encounters bring a palpable sense of danger to the discussion, underscoring the risks taken by those who dare to confront history's silent guardians. The cryptic demise of Kilgallen takes center stage, her fearless investigation into JFK's murder offering a chilling parallel to Monroe's tragic fate, and suggesting a cascade of cover-ups linked to the highest levels of government and media.

Wrap up the episode by considering the essence of history's lingering questions and the role of "stop and think" literature in examining them. Morris Wolfe's unexpected insights into Kilgallen's world have opened new doors in the collective quest for clarity, revealing the profound impact of crowdsourcing in historical research. Shaw's work, including his latest book "Fighting for Justice," celebrates individuals who dedicate themselves to piecing together the jigsaw of the past, ensuring that the search for answers continues to enlighten and inspire. Join us for a thought-provoking journey that connects the dots across decades and demands a closer look at the stories we thought we knew.

Enjoy the podcast teaser from Citizen Journalist 

Chapters

• 1:12 Uncovering Truth
• 9:59 Dorothy Kilgallen and the JFK Assassination
• 21:59 Dorothy Kilgallen's Investigation Into JFK Assassination
• 30:33 Kilgallen's Impact on JFK Investigation
• 44:14 JFK's Assassination and Kilgallen's Mysterious Death
• 53:16 A Journey Into Investigating Historical Figures

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:13

Hi and welcome to Citizen Journalist.

Speaker 1: 1:14

I'm your host, shaman Isis, and I am delighted to be introducing you to Episode 1, season 1 of our new podcast, citizen Journalist. We are going to be covering the most exciting, most powerful, the most impactful news and stories that affect humanity, and trying to get to the truth from an unbiased place and without corporate interests influencing our opinions. So if that sounds good to you, definitely check out the upcoming episodes of Citizen Journalist. For our first episode, our premier episode, I could not be more excited to be introducing you to somebody I have a great deal of respect for and I'm quite honored he's come on the show.

Speaker 1: 1:51

For our very, very first episode, citizen Journalist and 30-time author, mark Shaw, is going to be sharing how he connected the dots between Marilyn Monroe, john F Kennedy, dorothy Kilgalen and RFK some of the most incredible news stories that have happened in recent decades, particularly here in America. He uncovers facts and evidence and truth that I honestly think would interest the families of those people. So if you like to find out the truth or you want to know the truth about those incredible and shocking historical events, then enjoy episode one of Citizen Journalist. Hi and welcome to Citizen Journalist. I'm your host, shaman Isis, and we have a fantastic show for you. I am honored and delighted to be joined by investigative journalist and author extraordinaire, mark Shaw, who I have incredible respect for. Mark, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2: 2:55

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 2:56

You're welcome. I was fortunate enough to catch your many interviews over the years at the Commonwealth Club and on different news shows and podcasts, and have been fascinated by your work, so I would absolutely love it if you could take our audience through sort of the timeline of how you connected these, your work and the books that you actually were able to write.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Well, I think sometimes I feel like I've been an accidental author because I certainly would have never planned to do this. You know, I barely got through Purdue University in six years. I lost my first job, got fired after about a month. By the grace of God, I got into law school. I wasn't a very good student there. I ended up being a criminal defense lawyer handling mostly high-profile murder cases. After four or five years of that I figured I was going to be an alcoholic or a drug addict if I kept going with that area of interest, because there's no winners there the victims, obviously, and even the people, the perpetrators. Their life is mostly over. So I finally decided against that. I had gotten a break because I tried a criminal case with the famed lawyer F Lee Bailey, and through Lee I was able then to use my knowledge about criminal trials and so on and so forth to be asked by Good Morning America to cover trials. The first was Claudie Longier and Aspen. That was Andy Williams' wife who accidentally supposedly shot her lover.

Speaker 2: 4:46

And then after that I ended up working on the OJ case, I worked on the Mike Tyson trial, I worked on the Kobe Bryant case. That that part of me kind of happened serendipously because of all those things that I'd done before. But I had absolutely no interest in writing any books of any kind. I never had any training whatsoever. But when I covered the Mike Tyson trial and sat there in the front row and watched him have the worst defense lawyer I'd ever seen, there was very little evidence against Mike and it upset me so much that I decided to write a book about it and that became Down for the Count, which was published. Let's see, it'd be 1992. So that's twenty, thirty-one years ago, thirty-two years ago now. And I really enjoyed the research for that book and discovered that while I didn't have any writing classes or the Iowa workshop or any you know thing like that, I started kind of writing, learning how to write by how I talk to juries. In fact, today it's amazing because most people and I have heard so many people around the world and through my books and through these presentations that are up on YouTube, your books are easily read. Well, of course they are, because I'm from a small town in Indiana. I don't have a large vocabulary, but I basically talked to the reader and just like I did, I talked to juries.

Speaker 2: 6:19

So I finished a Tyson book and then I got interested in doing more books. I start out with a few sports books and things, but the real link to this whole array of books six books now that touch on the JFK assassination and this miracle woman, dorothy Kilgallan came about again a little bit by accident. Although I don't believe in those things, I'm very spiritual and so I believe everything's meant to happen. In the 1980s I worked with an attorney in San Francisco named Melvin Beley. A very famous lawyer represented the Rolling Stones and Errol Flynn and Tammy Faye Baker and all of these big shot clients that he had, and I worked in his building there in San Francisco and started then thinking about perhaps writing a biography of him. So I did some research and everything and decided to write one, because he had written two autobiographies and they conflicted. That's his own story in a book.

Speaker 1: 7:23

I love that.

Speaker 2: 7:24

There were different versions in there, so I started in to work on Mr Beley's work, and that took me about a year I think that goes back to almost 2007 someplace in there and that book became Melvin Beley King of the Courtroom, and that darn book did pretty well as well as down for the count had, and I was really surprised, though, when I learned more about his affiliations with the mafia.

Speaker 2: 7:50

And anytime you're a historian or researcher or investigative reporter or whatever, you get these clues that come along. You know that, and then you can either let them go or you follow up on them, and I think I have one habit that is very similar to Dorothy Kilgallon that we'll talk about, and that's curiosity. I don't care what it is I get. For instance, I think we've gotten something like five, six thousand emails in the last few years. I answer every one of them, because I never know when there's going to be a tip from a reader or somebody who's watched a presentation or something, and so many times that has enabled me to find new evidence as I was going forward. So I worked on Beley's book, and then I was so surprised because I learned that he became Jack Ruby's attorney Jack Ruby, the one who shot the Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 1: 8:39

So you didn't know that he had been Jack Ruby's attorney in the beginning of the film?

Speaker 2: 8:43

No, I may have back then, but that was in the 80s. But I did not and I didn't know. His most famous client that he had was Mickey Cohen, who was a Los Angeles gangster, and I started thinking about, you know, when I was talking to people about Beley and his representing Ruby, I thought, you know, maybe I'll look more into the JFK assassination, which I had never done, I never was very interested in it at all, and so I did that and that led me to go back to the 1960 election where I learned that you know what most people know today and it's pretty, it's pretty well chronicled that Joe Kennedy knew they were going to lose that election. The JFK was going to lose unless they won the states of Illinois and West Virginia. And so Joe, who had his mafia connections as well through Frank Sinatra, got in touch with some of the mafia guys named Sam Giancon in Chicago and Carlos Marcell in New Orleans, and all of them, and through their support and their money and they're basically telling people vote as many times as you can.

Speaker 2: 9:49

I love that, Paying them to vote. They won those two states. Yeah, but what I found out.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Chicago doesn't surprise me at all. I was a little surprised about the other one, but it makes sense.

Speaker 2: 9:58

The corruption you know in Chicago and all that. So I learned, though, that Joe Kennedy had made what I call, in the book that I wrote about that, the Poison Patriarch a deal with the devil, because he informed those mafioso that, listen, you help us win the election, We'll leave you alone when we get in the White House.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Joe basically just double crossed them, because the first thing that they did, and I don't speculate, I have primary source witnesses and I had one who was right there the morning at breakfast when Joe Kennedy ordered JFK to appoint Bobby Kennedy Attorney General. And anybody who knows anything about Bobby knows he hated the mafia, the McClellan hearings, he made fun of those guys and all this, and so the first thing that he did was go ahead and go after Gene Conn for tax evasion and also Carlos Marcello. He deported him to Guatemala and you know, I learned when I was working with Good Morning America and covering trials for them that you can't mess around with those guys. I'll just tell you a quick story. When I was reporting for them, they asked me to go talk to the lawyer for a Philadelphia gangster and he was going to talk to us. Well, you're not supposed to do that. The code is silence and everything. But I interviewed this guy I can't remember what his name is and he said some things to me on the air that we couldn't believe about them getting into Atlantic City and things like that.

Speaker 2: 11:35

So they played that the next morning on GMA and it was a huge hit. And so the producer called me in Philadelphia and said Mark, stay there and see if that guy will talk to you again. So I called him at his office. A woman answered and I said is Mr Such and Such there? And she said and she kind of stumbled and then she came back and I could tell she was crying and I said are you okay? And she said well, mr Shaw, I guess you don't know. When my boss started his car this morning it blew up.

Speaker 1: 12:04

Oh well, you just gave me chill bumps. All over my entire body it gives me chill bumps.

Speaker 2: 12:08

And I will tell you, I got out of Philadelphia quickly.

Speaker 1: 12:11

I bet you did, but you see, you can't remember everything.

Speaker 2: 12:15

You can't mess around with those guys. They have their own code of rules and things like that, and revenge is very much a part of that. So I wrote the poison patriarch and that was going to be it. But then during the Bell Eye research, one of his friends said you know, mel knew Dorothy Kilgallan. And the only thing I could say to him was you wait, wait a minute. She was on what's my Line. Was he on that show?

Speaker 2: 12:42

This guy said Mark, you are a dumb head, you don't know anything about her. She was yeah, on what's my Line. What's by telling you 10 million people every Sunday? No, she was syndicated. Her newspaper column was syndicated to 200 newspapers across the country. She had a radio show to listen to a million people a day. She was this. She was that. She was a big deal. She's one of the reasons I went into communications. Yeah, and so you know, you don't know anything about her at all. Well, that really stirred interest in me. And then he also said something which I couldn't get out of my mind, and that was you know, when Dorothy Kilgallan died, mel Bell Eye said to me well, they've killed Dorothy, now they'll go after Jack Ruby.

Speaker 1: 13:22

So Melvin Bell Eye said that to you.

Speaker 2: 13:25

To his friend, to his friend. So I thought I thought what, what, what wait a minute. So I started my research into Dorothy Kilgallan and I was amazed to find out all of those important things about her and the career that she had. You know, we're working on a possible film about Dorothy and in there, we said Before, there was media icons like Oprah and Diane Walters and Barbara Walters and some of those. There was Dorothy Kilgallen, and that's true. The New York Post called her the most powerful female voice in America.

Speaker 1: 14:01

She was a bigI don't think people today really understand that. Back then there were very few media and someone like her was somebody that everyone heard and read and listened to every single day. Millions and millions of people all over the country would hear that one voice. That's right. Did you fall in love with her when you first started researching her? I'm just curious.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Well, not to begin with, except that I started finding all of this information about her in many of the most peculiar places and it finally dawned on me that you know well, let me golet me wait one more time, okay. So I started to look into her and I find out what she's doing and everything else. And yeah, she covered the Charles Lindbergh baby kidnapping case. She covered the Dr Sam Shepard case, which became the fugitive movie. She was the real thing. She interviewed, she was at Queen Elizabeth's coronation. She got a Pulitzer nomination for it. Just on and on and on.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Ernest Hemingway said she was the greatest female writer in America. All these different things about her. And then I landed on the fact that, yes, she was involved somehow or another in the JFK assassination. And I started to do my research there and it seemed like when the moment that I started that and I found out that she was killed under mysterious circumstances, died under mysterious circumstance, I guess we just say right now, in 1965, that you know, there was something about that that made me wonder, because I wasn't able to find out an awful lot of information about Dorothy. Yes, the reruns of Whites my Line were on the internet, at YouTube, and everything, but she kind of just disappeared from the face of the earth. So I thought, wait a minute. I kind of had this feeling. I got her picture up here right on my wall and I really felt like that. Dorothy decided, for whatever reason and I see this as an honor that she wanted me to write about her. So sometimes people think I'm crazy that way, but I don't believe that and all the way through all of this journey you're going to hear about, dorothy has been right there as my spiritual guide. There's no other reason for it. There's no way you can figure all that out without that being the case.

Speaker 2: 16:19

So I looked into the JFK assassination. I found out she went to Dallas. I found out that she went to the Jack Ruby trial. She was at D Leopold. This is Jack Ruby trial. She was the only one to interview Ruby out of 400 reporters and what he told her then gave her a good idea of what really happened. She just was on the job.

Speaker 2: 16:40

And if you know, if people know anything about Dorothy Kilgallen, as many of her colleagues said, including those on what's my Line, when Dorothy went after a story, I mean she went in their head first and she would not let go, no matter what. And the reason that is so interesting Cynthia is that she got involved in the JFK assassination. Because it was personal, because what I found out is that Dorothy was amazing. She had all these careers and all the time was a mother of three. She overcame all of these gender discrimination, sexual discrimination, to try to get ahead. It was a man's world back then.

Speaker 2: 17:17

But what I found out is that of the three kids, her youngest, son, kerry, was the one that she loved most and she was ended up taking him to the White House. And JFK, who had been to parties at Dorothy's home and they were good friends and everything, came into the library and he made a big fuss over little Kerry. He looked at some letters he brought from the third grade class and this kind of thing and gave him a PT 109 pin and all that. So when JFK died, it was really personal for Dorothy when she found out that JFK died. And then she saw Jack Ruby Shootley, harvey, oswald boy, she was on the job and that's why everything that she did then with her really courage of going against the wind, of going against what J Edgar Hoover was talking about with the Oswald alone theory and all that.

Speaker 2: 18:11

That was all, but in fact one column she wrote after JFK died, and then I'll stop and let you come. She forgot a question or two. She wrote what I remember is a tall man stooping over a little boy praising him for the letters that he brought from the third grade class, including his. This is the man who was killed in Dallas. And, boy, when I read that column of hers I thought, boy, I'm on the right track here. I wasn't going to go look into the JFK assassination, but now I'm going to. And fortunately that book the Reporter who Knew Too Much became a best seller and people got found out about Dorothy Kilgallon. In some ways I'll pat myself on the back. I kind of brought her back to life.

Speaker 2: 18:57

But she wanted me to do that, and so I continually, even now, try to do what I can to let as many people in the world know about Dorothy, and, I'm pleased to say, the presentations and interviews that I've done that are up on YouTube. There's now 12 million views. It's just mind boggling. And me, this guy from a little town in Indiana who barely got through college, could do this, but it's because Dorothy, in my opinion, wanted me to.

Speaker 1: 19:28

Yeah, she was lost to history. You know, I remember her when I was young because reruns were a big thing, and I remember really falling in love with her. The way that she behaved, her energy, the way that she showed up was really powerful and it impressed the men in the room, which was unusual back then and she owned the space that she was in. Her intelligence just was incredible. And when I found what's my Line Again and I started watching all the episodes for her and then I went to look her up and I was speechless when I realized that not only had she been forgotten by history, but that she had passed away in such a shocking way murdered, assassinated, however we want to label it. And that's how I came across your book and I just was so impressed with your research. So just for people listening really quick, and I'm going to bring up Marilyn Monroe just for a second and we can touch on her later. But Marilyn Monroe passes away in 62, 63.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Yeah, you got Marilyn in 62, jfk in 63, and Dorothy in 65. In fact, that became the next book after I wrote Denial of Justice because I found the Ruby trial transcripts, after the reporter knew too much. And then People All Over the World asked me if there was a connection between Marilyn JFK and Dorothy's death and that became Collateral Damage, which was the next book. And yes, dorothy looked into that particular situation.

Speaker 2: 20:52

You know, going back to what you said about her, how many people through the years have said boy, I wish we had journalists like Dorothy Kilgallan today, a woman of integrity, because she's a perfect subject for your show, because you know she didn't look for the sensational headlines and then find the evidence to go with that somewhere or another. She went out and got the facts. She was trusted. My favorite photo of hers is up on the dorthykilgallanstoryorg, the dorthykilgallanstoryorg. She's standing in the middle of the courtroom at the Dr Sam Shepherd case and all the reporters are gathered around her in admiration. That really says it right there in pictures, because they had that admiration for her. She was a woman of integrity and it's because she was seen that way that she was able to get the evidence that she did and the stories that she did based on that reputation.

Speaker 1: 21:54

So she, so Marilyn passes away mysteriously, which is a whole other episode. And then JFK is assassinated and Dorothy, and then Jack Ruby kills Oswald. The powers that be wanted to be Oswald alone. Dorothy really gets hung up on that because she feels like something smells Her reporter juices are just flying and she ends up getting the chance to interview Jack Ruby privately, which is something no one got the chance to do, and that was sort of the thread there. Okay, just for the listeners who might not be as familiar, please continue.

Speaker 2: 22:33

I'm breathless, sorry. And then we can take it a bit further as to how my research works. So, yes, and whatever Jack Ruby told her, your listeners, or what viewers are going to wonder, well, mark, what did he tell her? And I'll explain in just a little bit why we don't know. But what happened is that she just took that. You know that in that information he gave her the first place she went. You know there's all.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Last November I wanted to throw up there's all of these crazy theories out there in terms of the JFK assassination, but Dorothy had it right. She looked, as I did when I was a criminal defense lawyer at MOTIV and who had the greatest motive to have gotten rid of JFK. Well, you would think and this is what my research showed that, hey, first thing is that Marcello, they wanted to revenge his being sent to Guatemala and they wanted to kill RFK, bobby. But if they kill Bobby, then Jack Kennedy and the government will come after them with everything they have. So if you kill Jack Kennedy, then Bobby Kennedy is powerless. And that's exactly what happened and that's what Dorothy figured out. She went to New Orleans. She interviewed people who knew Carlos Marcello, who was the mafia don that Bobby had gone after, and she put all the information together and everything, and then I stopped at that particular point. So it's interesting, though, because most of the things I've done in my life, I'm an oddball and I do things in different ways, and so I do the mass backwards at times.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Well, you would think that you would research Maryland JFK Dorothy. Well, I researched Dorothy, jfk, maryland, and the reason I did is because I wasn't going to look into that. I didn't know that there was any connection there. But the first thing that I found and we can talk about as much as you want to, but the first thing I found was a photograph of Maryland and Dorothy together on the set of a movie in LA.

Speaker 2: 24:35

And then, you know, this Maryland suicide thing had always bothered me. It didn't make much sense, but I found a column that Dorothy wrote one day before Maryland died that she was on the upswing MM. Has Hollywood talking again, she's got Broadway offers, she's got a new man her life that's a bigger name than Joe DiMaggio the baseball player, all this kind of stuff and I thought to myself that woman committed suicide. That doesn't make any sense, and so I took that as far as I could to show that, just as Dorothy's death, as we'll talk about, there was no real investigation but that you know there were really complicated situations there because Maryland had a brief love affair with John Kennedy and he dumped her and then she was in love with Bobby Kennedy just before she died in August of 62. And despite what Bobby claimed he was in LA, he was in love with her. I found a CIA document that showed they were in a torrid love affair and all of that and I was able to prove through my evidence that Bobby was complicit in Maryland's death.

Speaker 2: 25:44

And if you want to know what Dorothy thought of that, I was able to find the daughter of Dorothy's butler, interviewed her, my wife and I in New York City, and got a lot of information from her about Dorothy and the assassination and everything else. But she said that when, after Maryland died, dorothy told her father the butler it's the Kennedys, so she knew exactly what was going on. All that. So I was done again. I was gonna quit then with that.

Speaker 2: 26:15

But I couldn't get it out of my mind that Dorothy Kilgallen, after she left New Orleans and went back to New York, she made the same mistake that Marilyn Monroe had done, because the CIA documents said that Marilyn was going to go to the media with the love affairs, with matters of national security, all these other kinds of things about the Kennedys, and of course they couldn't let that happen and I was able to find accounts of exactly how Marilyn died and people can look at that in collateral damage.

Speaker 2: 26:45

But with Dorothy she was a blabbermouth too. She went back to New York City. I'm gonna solve the JFK assassination. I know who killed JFK and I'll prove it. I've got all the information I need and all this other kind of stuff. And unfortunately that information got back to those people who had orchestrated the JFK assassination Marcelo and his group and also J Edgar Hoover, who had covered it up with the Warren commission and whatever. And it was only a matter of time because Dorothy now had a target on her back. She was found dead in her apartment on November 8, 1965. What anybody with a first with any brain would say is a state death scene.

Speaker 1: 27:27

Oh, it was. They really read it, mark.

Speaker 2: 27:29

I was like what Her makeup wasn't wearing, the clothes she normally wore to bed, all of that kind of thing, and yet they called it an overdose of drugs and alcohol circumstances undetermined. I've proven recently that that certainly wasn't the case in the new books, including fight of her justice, the latest one.

Speaker 2: 27:52

So, also during that time. Then Dorothy was able to get more evidence about what happened with the JFK assassination. It's amazing to me, and I have no hesitation in saying that Dorothy sends these people to me, because last year in the middle of the year I got an email from a guy named Morris Wolfe and he said Mr Shaw, I just watched your presentation at the Allen Public Library in Dallas. He said I noticed it has seven million views. But when I watched it I noticed the name of Dorothy Kilgallan and I knew her and of course my ears perk up because so many people are dead now, as you know and so I emailed him and he and I had a long discussion and he and I wanna just make this quick because there's more things I know you wanna talk about. But he said yes, I knew her in the 1960s and 63 and 64.

Speaker 2: 28:49

And the reason that I did is because I first worked for Bobby Kennedy and Jack Kennedy Bobby Kennedy when he was Attorney General and JFK when he was the President. I was the assistant to Bobby Kennedy, helped him write the Civil Rights Act. I knew Bobby really well and then I got to know Jack Kennedy as well. I used to take messages between the two brothers from the Attorney General's office to the White House because they didn't want to use the telephone. They thought that J Edgar Hoover was tapping their phones and all of that. So he gives me all this inside information about that. And he said then I became the legislative assistant to a Warren Commission member named Senator John Sherman Cooper from Kentucky, and I thought, oh my gosh. He said yes, and I used to go with Senator Cooper to the hearings. Nobody has ever gotten inside the Warren Commission like that, where they have a reputable guy, a Yale lawyer, credentials the best they could be. And so he started telling me about Senator Cooper and his reservations about what was going on with the Warren Commission. They know about the mob and Jack Ruby and Oswald and Ruby and JFK's assassination, but they won't do anything with it. J Edgar Hoover is ramrodding the assassination investigation into Oswald alone. I'm fed up with everything that's going on. I think I'll go ahead and resign. I mean he had all of these things that Cooper told him and all of that. And then he went to the hearings and he saw what was going on.

Speaker 2: 30:24

The witnesses were not interviewed by the members of the commission, they were interviewed mostly by the staff. So he gives me all this information and then I'm waiting. I'm waiting. How do you know Dorothy Kilgallen? And he said well, yes, mr Shaw, she was a good friend of Senator John Sherman Coopers as well, and she was invited to parties at his home in Georgetown at 29th and N Street. And of course, what I do, and what you do, I know, is you check the facts.

Speaker 2: 30:53

And so I, immediately after we talked, went and looked and see where he lived. And by golly, old John Sherman Cooper lived at 29th and N Street. He said I sat right with her at the dinner table and she was even an investigative reporter at the dinner table, between having a Caesar salad and everything. She was asking him all these questions about Senator Cooper and all that kind. He called her a bright light bulb and he said I was just fascinated with Dorothy and all of that.

Speaker 2: 31:21

So then that really triggered something in my mind as to a question that I had, because not only did Dorothy write all the columns about the JFK assassination, the Oswald file must not close. I mean, she really went against the grain, was courageous in doing that because she believed that that Oswald along theory was crazy and it didn't make any sense whatsoever. But not only did she do that, but all at once Dorothy Kilgallon ended up with Jack Ruby's testimony before the Warren Commission, the secret testimony and I had already found that out in previous books and had it in the reporter too much and denial of justice and collateral damage. But I had never been able to substantiate how she got that information.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Neither had Hoover.

Speaker 2: 32:09

Was able to tell me that John Sherman Cooper gave it to her.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Yeah, that was my, that blew my mind. When you shared that recently I was like wow, my mind too.

Speaker 2: 32:19

I'll tell you and so you know. I was able to find out that she knew about the corruption there, that there was supposed to be a dissent in the final report that Cooper and Senator Richard Russell in Georgia demanded that happened.

Speaker 2: 32:32

And not one, but two senators, not in the final report not in the report, but they just stored any evidence of their ever even going to be a dissent at all. So all of that really led me to believe that, especially. And one thing, the reason I wanted to show you this book is because, again, you can check out things these days, and so this this the cover of Fighting for Justice, which is the latest book, and there's a couple of presentations up on YouTube about it. You'll see that here is J Edgar Hoover, marilyn Dorothy, bobby Kennedy and then the members of the Warren Commission. So Morris Wolfe says to me Mark, if you want to see how disgusted John Sherman Cooper was with the, with the committee report, this is when they gave LBJ the report look over here and you will see that John Sherman Cooper is the second one and he's hiding behind Hale Boggs. He's so disgusted he doesn't want anything to do with it. Richard Russell is over here and he looks like he wants to throw up. Yeah, so they were.

Speaker 1: 33:34

They were disgusted.

Speaker 2: 33:36

That kind of proof is, I think, what's given me my credibility. Am I right about all this? Well, I don't have to be right about it, because I think Dorothy is what's that saying, occam's?

Speaker 1: 33:48

Occam's razor yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:49

Razor.

Speaker 1: 33:50

The most obvious answers. Usually, that's the theory, that's the theory of Dorothy Kilgallen.

Speaker 2: 33:55

Yeah, that just, you know, common sense make it. Common sense works here because you've got what Bobby Kennedy did with the mafia guys and the mafia guys got a strike back and so they set up the whole thing with JFK's assassination and then, because they weren't, because J Edgar Hoover doesn't want to get into any of that, he doesn't want to investigate. You know, marcelo or Giancona or anybody doesn't want to investigate Bobby Kennedy's complicity, complicity in Maryland's death. The CIA they have a member on the CIA, the CIA, alan Dulles on the commission. They don't want to get into the CIA. All he wants is the Oswald alone conclusion. Yeah, and that's what Dorothy figured out, and so she didn't have it all figured out, but nobody would listen to her back then.

Speaker 1: 34:42

Yeah, I hope you don't mind my saying, joe, but I think one of the reasons is because she was a woman.

Speaker 2: 34:47

Oh, absolutely you know, cbs went out at the time and did this two part series with their heavy guns Dan Rather, cronkite, mike Wallace, all of them. You know what they came up with Oswald alone, yeah, of course she was never interviewed by the Warren commission. She was never interviewed by CBS. She was never interviewed by anybody because they didn't believe that this gossip columnist and quiz show contestant quiz show panelists knew what she was talking about and that's why they missed really what happened with the assassination.

Speaker 1: 35:21

Yeah, I just that whole series of events when you pieced it together and I think for listeners that to really appreciate and understand your work, you know you approach this almost by accident, kind of kept falling into these incredible developments. And when people started to hear about the respectable way in which you were going after the truth and showing real evidence that you could discover that apparently all these other people couldn't discover, you started to, over the years, not only build a collection of incredible books that proved so many interesting aspects of all of these assassinations and murders, but as you moved along, you had all these amazing experiences, which is why I think when we talk about the spiritual side of that and Dorothy being there saying, you know, I am not going to be forgotten by history and neither is what happened. You've had all these incredible people. When you shared that story about what was his name again, the Cooper's assistant, marshall.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Morris, wolfe Morris.

Speaker 1: 36:20

Wolfe. The assistant yes, yeah, when you shared that detail about him and the Warren Commission, like to me that was one of the biggest pieces of evidence that really needed to come out to show just what a loosey-goosey operation the whole Warren Commission was. I mean, the thing was a joke from beginning to end, but real quick.

Speaker 2: 36:38

Let me stop you there, because what you're doing with your podcast and everything else you're doing where you want to bring to light information, news, whatever it is that the mainstream media misses. The perfect example of this is you're having me on your show during November, especially the end of November. Okay, my publisher did whatever they could because, in my opinion, what Morris Wolfe told me about the Warren Commission and the corruption there is the single most important piece of evidence in history about the Warren Commission. Do you think the mainstream media wanted anything to do with me with regard to my being on the air and talking about what happened there? He went to every place he could think of and tried to get them, tried to say to them this is it, this is the key to everything You've got. Any investigation at all has to start with the corruption of the Warren Commission and then peel the layers back to when JFK was killed. None of them wanted to do that. I'll give you another example.

Speaker 2: 37:53

There were several conferences around the country and some that I'd been to before, way back when. Do you think they invited me this time? No, because you know why. If I'm on the air, television or whatever, or conferences, dorothy Kilgallan is there. All of the books that have been written about the JFK assassination, except for mine, completely avoid her. She's not quoted in any of it, because you can't do that if you're gonna keep yelling and screaming about Oswald alone. She destroys every aspect of that. So I almost look at like a badge of courage or a badge of honor or whatever. But it's disappointing that the public doesn't hear about Dorothy and her research and mine and so on and so forth. Instead there's these crazy theories and all that out there and everything. Because that's really. There was an injustice to Marilyn when she died.

Speaker 1: 38:56

Oh yeah, these injustices go all the way back, but there was an injustice to JFK when he died.

Speaker 2: 39:01

There was never a thorough investigation of his death. J Ed Guhoover did not want that to happen. He didn't want any investigation. He didn't want the body examined. That's why he sent it off to Washington DC, stole it in Dallas. He didn't want anybody to be looking into anything else other than the fact that it was one man who was responsible for his death, because then it would come back to. The FBI should have stopped it or whatever the man play and they look into then him covering it up and everything like that. So they ignore Dorothy and they try to ignore today. Now I'm really pleased that 12 million people have seen and then heard about Dorothy up on YouTube and all of that and read my books and things like that. But it's the damnedest thing. I can't figure it out, except that it's an embarrassment for these people if Dorothy gets into the equation.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Well, I think there's two things there. I think Dorothy and I wanted to go back real quick for people who are listening, who don't know the story quite as well, to make sure they're following this train of thought. But really quick on. First of all, I think you will go down in history as the person who helped dramatically helped prove that the Warren commission was a joke and that there were two dissenting opinions that were not allowed to be included, and those two men just wanted to get out of there because they could smell the stench the fact that the powers that be shut down any potential for investigating or connecting any of the things that happened because it wasn't convenient for them.

Speaker 1: 40:33

I do think that what does prevent a lot of news media from covering this which is one of the reasons why I started the show is the fact that the powers that be the letter agencies, if you will still will not release the full documents related to these instances and I think within those we may be surprised to find some of. I mean, we may end up finding Dorothy Kilkeland's missing files, which disappeared the morning that she was discovered, or I think they probably disappeared when she was taken out, to be honest, but I think you will go down in history and the world is changing and people wanna know the truth. And the days of mass media really controlling the media or over.

Speaker 2: 41:15

Yes, do you really think so?

Speaker 1: 41:16

Yeah, I'm an intuitive, I'll tell you I don't just think so, I know so that will happen.

Speaker 2: 41:22

I'd like to think so. I'm a very optimistic person, but some of this that goes on. We were talking yesterday, my wife and I and then a couple of friends. The only people that make headlines these days are the screamers. It doesn't and it doesn't matter what they say. Unfortunately, the quarterback from Green Bay Rogers, the person that we in our household call you know who? We don't mention his name the former president, all of these Mr X he used to be Twitter all of these people out there. They use the sensational to get the headlines and, for whatever reason and I don't understand it exactly people just lap that up. They just lap that up. They just love it. It's entertainment.

Speaker 1: 42:14

I think that one of the things I've seen as a professional communicator is the demise of mass media, and the numbers are just. I mean, compared to the numbers 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, they've really lost the plot. They've lost their audience. Oh yeah, and the numbers that you're seeing for things like Twitter, space or X is what it's called now and things like TikTok, where these types of conversations are actually very popular and the narratives that they are used to being able to roll out to people don't play anymore and people won't share them because they can smell it a mile away.

Speaker 1: 42:46

So I promise you, not only is the world changing, media, mass media in terms of controlling the narrative, that whole thing is dying. That will always exist, where people will try to control what people believe. But the citizen journalism isn't just about me and my podcast. It's about the fact that the average citizen is taking it upon themselves to try to. You know many of them not everybody, but a lot of them are taking it upon themselves to try to find out the truth.

Speaker 2: 43:11

And so, yes, I do believe all of this. It gives me hope.

Speaker 1: 43:13

I don't know really quick.

Speaker 1: 43:14

For those of you who are listening, I'm gonna take us back for just a second so that we can kind of catch you up in case you got lost in all these incredible details and the things that Mark's been able to prove over the years with his many books.

Speaker 1: 43:28

So we have Marilyn having an affair with Bobby Kennedy she had a brief one, apparently with JFK, and then the brother, and then she's back on the rise again, but she is a little bit I mean, she is a little bit hard to predict at the time because of the things that have been done to her over the years in Hollywood. And she's talking and talking about going to media. And then she has a strange death which I've never my intuition is always told me it was not a suicide and then, and then flash forward and dealt Dorothy Kilgallan. No new Marilyn, new Bobby, new JFK. And then we move forward to 63, and that's when JFK gets fascinated. So JFK then gets assassinated and you've proven through your books that that happened because they were trying to well, they were basically trying to control what the two of them were doing, or what Bobby was going to.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Bobby mostly Bobby, bobby mostly Jack and Kilgallan Jack and Bobby's powers.

Speaker 1: 44:32

Yeah, yeah, and Bobby's powerless and and it probably took care of some other issues that they had would be my Maybe. They tended to clean up things that way, and so Kate dies in an unusual manner.

Speaker 2: 44:43

How come you know that? By the way, do you have some insight information here with regard to the the connections at all or anything, do you?

Speaker 1: 44:52

No, no, I think that must have been just an intuitive thing I just said. So JFK is taken out, and I do think that multiple people had an interest in taking it out was one thing I found about the letter agencies is they don't like a president's, they can't control and they don't like presidents they can't predict, especially ones that have are on any kinds of medication, if you will, because we have a sort of a history of unpredictable presidents ending up in very unusual situations.

Speaker 1: 45:19

So JFK is is taken out sadly. And then that whole thing, you know that whole narrative, and that's what they did back then in the 60s. They took command of the narrative because they were, because back then that you know, the idea of controlling what the average person thought was justified as best for everybody, best for the country, you know, forget the truth. And Dorothy Kilgailen, who was the preeminent female, she was the Barbara Walters, oprah Winfrey, you know on and on of her day. She was an incredibly powerful, intelligent woman who was an independent and fearless thinker. She says my friend JFK, my friend Marilyn, something about all this just smells wrong. And then she's, you know, she's upset by what's happened with JFK and she starts to investigate it. She goes to the trials, she starts to get information sent to her, she gets people sharing things with her, she becomes a threat to the narrative that the, the powers that we really wanted to sell, which was that Oswald killed Kennedy on his own, for whatever reasons they were trying to sell. And then to Jack Ruby, who somehow ends up in Dallas in a police department in the basement with a gun which you know just stinks to high heaven, takes out Oswald. So we can't actually ask him any questions. Amazing how that works. And we've got Jack Ruby taking him out, and Dorothy Kilgailen, the preeminent female journalist who cannot be controlled, who is fearless, is the only reporter at the time who gets to sit down for almost 10 minutes with Jack Ruby. While she's working on columns that are upsetting the powers that be, including Hoover, while she's gathering information and being sent private documents that even the president hasn't seen, she's accumulating things that make her a threat and she suddenly amazing gets found.

Speaker 1: 47:02

And this is what I wanted to bring up Dorothy Kilgailen, an incredibly influential, powerful woman who was very much in command of herself, is found dead from a drug and alcohol overdose and in a bedroom she wouldn't sleep in, never slept in, with the air conditioning on when it's cold out, wearing an outfit that her hairstylist, who knew her incredibly well, had literally never seen her wear, holding or not, sitting next to a book that was open to be read as, and she's laying on a bed that's made up in, with her hair, her wig, her eyelashes, in a book that she can't read because her glasses aren't anywhere to be found, and there's a doctor drink in the room that shows somebody opened up a capsule and dumped it inside the glass.

Speaker 1: 47:43

So, yeah, that's how we all take our pills at night. And she's found this way and we're all supposed to believe that she accidentally overdosed, and while while all of her notes that she had accumulated about Jack Ruby, about JFK's death, all disappeared and have never been seen since. And so now that's where we're at, and and oh, I just this do you see how on fire I get, like the whole?

Speaker 2: 48:07

thing you can tell. Thank you, I like that passion, that's for sure. And of course, fbi agent raided her home about an hour or so after she died and those documents disappeared supposedly. You know one of the things I did with Dorothy as I went to the autopsy it showed that she had one drug in her system. She didn't have any drug problems at all, but one drug in her system. But I also found that a couple years later they rechecked the bodily fluids they found three, three, uh, arbitruits in her system. So obviously somebody had, you know, ejected those in her to poison her.

Speaker 2: 48:40

And then, of course, dorothy made the ultimate mistake. She signed a contract to write a tell all book about everything she learned about the assassination, maryland, everything else for Random House and when, when the powers, that be, the, the enemies that she'd made, found out about that, as, as I was told by a witness that I found again that I think she sent to me a Las Vegas casino pit boss who called me finally and talked to me about things the moment that that happened and everything he said and it always gives give me a chill she was dead and the main guy, as people will read, who was involved with her at the time was a journalist midwestern journalist named Ron Ptacky, and she shared with him some of her JFK assassination information.

Speaker 2: 49:28

Uh, I've been able to prove yeah, and what I've been able to do is that he was compromised by Hoover and Marcelo and those guys into setting her up for the kill. And if you want to see the proof that, uh, he obviously was involved, uh, you know, in in each of the books the last three books, uh, you'll see the poem that he wrote, uh, which, basically, look at your mouth, go open. Yes, gives the facts that only the killer could know. Yes, to do with, uh, uh, vodka and tonic drink, and just pass me one and don't worry which one is poison, and so on and so forth. That way, and obviously, uh, he was, he was obviously complicit in her death. Uh, I also have a witness who said he was. He told her he was the last thing, last.

Speaker 2: 50:11

Uh, a person that Dorothy saw. Uh, I've been after that guy for years and everything and was able to get a couple investigations that we thought would uh possibly put him in a prison cell, but he did a dirty trick to me. He died last year. But I'm going to work now we're we're into the situation now where I'm going to go to, uh, the New York District Attorney. Uh, with all the new evidence and everything that I have, I've got a somebody that may help me do that, and we're going to try to get Dorothy's name cleared, which is what my ultimate goal is yeah, yeah, and I agree with you.

Speaker 1: 50:41

I think that's a that is an admirable thing and it needs to happen, because the whole thing is farcical and the fact that that no one's actually done anything about it now just tells you just how much influence is coming from from people who are not even here anymore, because they put the fear of god into the, the, the letter agencies, to keep that quiet.

Speaker 1: 50:59

So, for those who are listening, um, pataki was somebody that Dorothy was having an affair with, supposedly there's not necessarily proof about that, but they were spending time together. Um, he was sketchy, a lot younger than her and, um, what's interesting about him is that he was spotted by somebody who had been on the show that night correct, there was a woman who was on what's my line that night when, and had seen her, dorothy Kilgalen, at the hotel and saw a man with her who who appeared to be like Pataki. But the thing that's most shocking that mark was talking about is that, uh, after her death there, you came across a poem that he had written, and that poem, um, it reads like the the confession of the killer who took her out because, of the details that were never available until years later.

Speaker 1: 51:46

I was shocked when you put that that poem up on.

Speaker 2: 51:48

You were doing a presentation at at something I forget which one it was and I was like that's a confession letter yeah, and that that still couldn't convince some of the uh authorities in in New York City to uh to do an investigation of Dorothy's death, because there really was no investigation when. When she died uh, you know it's, it's just, uh, it's significant that, uh, you know she had a lot of courage, this one, and, uh, she was really a patriot in a lot of ways. She put her life on the line by investigating the assassination and then continuing on, uh, at one point she she told one of the hairdressers, if the wrong people knew what I know about the assassination would cost me my life. She said, I'm afraid for my life and my family. I've got a gun, and not too long after that, obviously, uh, she was dead. So, um, I'm doing my part and and you are, and I really, by the way, I would miss this I really appreciate all the research you've done here because it really impresses me that you are, like Dorothy Kilgalen, a woman of the truth.

Speaker 2: 52:52

You're trying to. You know, we don't know exactly what the truth is ever. We can only, uh, you know, suggest the truth based on credible research and credible sources and things like that. But I'm very impressed by you that you're doing this and I think your, your podcast, uh, is really important, so I hope you'll continue on and have you know, have guests on uh, that that hopefully can inform people. My, my books are stop and think books. You know I don't try to to barge into people's minds and tell them they have to agree with me. I just want them to be able to stop and think and I think that's what you're after yeah, yeah, no, it's true.

Speaker 1: 53:29

That's one of the reasons why I really loved your, your, your books, because you really focus on what is what. What does the evidence say? Let's keep it is Occam's razor, like what do? What is the most likely scenario, given the facts that we know, which is why? Um so so you, you wrote um. I wanted to get back to to Morris really quick because I thought that was just fat. When did that happen, where you got contacted by by him?

Speaker 2: 53:54

uh, because that's what I just never know what's going to happen. These days I get these calls and these emails from people that have you know are still alive, and and somebody was got to hold them the other day about, uh, them, them, working on the limousine, uh in in the JFK, was died in, but died in and, and so I look into that story now. Um, but, uh, this came out of the blue. It really did. Uh, I had, I had, uh decided after collateral damage, that I was gonna, that was enough, uh, that I didn't need to go any further with what I had, and then all, and I was working on, I still had some research, I kept my notes and everything.

Speaker 2: 54:33

And then Morris, uh, god love him. Uh, you know, think about the odds. Uh, he, he decides, for whatever reason, to look at a video presentation of mine at the Allen library in Dallas, and he's starting to watch it, and then, all at once, he hears the name Dorothy Kilgallon. And what are the odds then of the fact that this man was a really good friend of Dorothy Kilgallon's? And, uh, you should have seen me.

Speaker 2: 55:01

I couldn't record what he was telling me because I didn't know what he was going to tell me when he called yeah and so I'm just writing as fast as I can everything that I, that he told me, and later on I went back and made sure that it was accurate. But I was just. I mean, my mind was racing in terms of all of this and getting inside the Warren Commission uh, j Edgar Hoover says that the Oswald alone theory is good, forgotten country. You know all this other kind of baloney that was going on. And, uh, he worked for Bobby Kennedy Morris, did he knew Jack Kennedy? He told me the about the Kennedy brothers. They were, they were playful together.

Speaker 1: 55:38

Uh, they, jfk was jealous of Bobby at times for getting too much publicity and then he gets into the door and one of the chances of him sitting at a dinner table with Dorothy Kilgallon at a member of the Warren Commission's home in Georgetown.

Speaker 1: 55:55

Now go figure, you can't tell me that, dorothy didn't set that up right, right, so was he the one that rode the bicycle back and forth between Bobby? And so, for the listeners, uh, he, uh, morris I want to make sure I say his name correct Morris, uh, uh, who who contacted Mark um and had known Dorothy Kilgallon and had worked for the senator who was one of the dissenters on the Warren Commission, who basically got shut down for being a dissenter along with another senator. So there wasn't just one, there were two that were dissenting on the Warren Commission, which I think most people realize now is just BS. Um, big fluff report, a full of bullshit. Excuse me, it's just the truth. Um, he, he, he carried. Not only was he friends with Dorothy Kilgallon, he carried messages because the the Jack Kennedy and his brother, bobby, did not trust their to use their phones because they knew they were being listened to by Hoover and uh, and just think about that.

Speaker 1: 56:50

How bizarre that is oh, I know he carried private messages between Bobby and JFK, like that's just wild and then it's been in contact with you. You had to have been like I'm sorry, what did you do? You worked for the Warren Commission Senator and you carried messages between the two brothers. Wow yeah, and did that cause another boat to be really?

Speaker 2: 57:10

I'm truly the most blessed man in the face of the earth. I really am, and I've been so fortunate that Dorothy sent all this information to me and then I've taken it and done my own research and all of that. So I'm proud of what I've done and I don't care if these mainstream media or anything or these others don't want to hang a do with it. I've tried to do my job in being able to put that material out there and I really appreciate your doing this because there will be I'll bet you, something, there will be somebody who will watch or listen to this podcast, who will get in touch with me with a tip about what happened back in 1963 or 64 or five, with Marilyn, dorothy or JFK. It happens all the time. Every day I get either an email or a call or something, and so they call that crowdsourcing. I never knew what that term meant, but I guess I'm a champion crowdsourcer because these things just come to me like a magnet. And who would have ever thought this could happen? But it has.

Speaker 1: 58:08

Wow, that's such an incredible journey. So the last book that you did, connecting all the dots, was that collateral damage.

Speaker 2: 58:14

No, this is Fighting for Justice, fighting for Justice, yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:17

And there's actually two presentations, one the end of last year and then one over November 7. Both at the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco about that book and visualizes a lot of the things Morris Wolfe has pictured up there. People are probably wondering what about Morris? How's he doing? Well, it seemed like right after I talked to him he said some health issues he's 88, I believe health issues. I think he's doing fine now, but I never felt like we could have him interviewed unless he wanted to be for that to happen, and I never had his permission to suggest that Basically, he was able to give his contribution to history as I've given mine through me, and so I made sure that what I wrote down and what he told me I've interviewed him twice and so make sure it was accurate and it is.

Speaker 1: 59:18

Yeah, I love that you interviewed him twice, because I think one of the things that Dorothy Kilgallan's death proves is that and I do, I'll go back to that in a second is that having a backup for somebody? And that's hard to do when you're an investigative journalist Like, who do you give your stuff to? But it's almost sad that there isn't a second set somewhere. But I say that didn't. Am I mentioning this? Am I misremembering? Did her assistant also pass away and their files also disappeared? Who's?

Speaker 2: 59:48

that now.

Speaker 1: 59:49

Dorothy Kilgallan's, didn't her assistant also? No, ok, then I'm maybe.

Speaker 2: 59:56

There's some conjecture speculation out there about what happened People with a round, Dorothy and everything else like that. A lot of people want to know why didn't anybody stand up for her?

Speaker 1: 1:00:06

when she died, because they knew that she didn't have any alcohol or drug problems.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

But they knew she was working on the JFK assassination and her family, her friends, her colleagues at what's my Line. Nobody did because they were afraid. They thought if the same, they knew that the same people who killed JFK had killed Dorothy. And so you know they really felt like that. They couldn't speak up at that time and in fact Mark Sinclair, who was Dorothy's main confidant, never talked about Dorothy's death in 63 until 1999, because he was so scared of what could happen. I should mention.

Speaker 2: 1:00:45

By the way, if people are interested in all my research and everything, I'm very honored that my university, Purdue University, is archiving my body of work. Neil Armstrong and Amelia Earhart and others are up there and it's amazing that that's happened for a guy that took six years to get through Purdue. But all of this research and everything is available. If you go to Purdue University and look at the archives I've sent them, let's see 21 boxes of material that I've kept over the years. So hopefully that'll be there for researchers over the years, Because what I like to have happen is somebody takes my research and then they go ahead and they look into things and all of that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:23

So yeah, yeah, you know, I think that's what will happen. Yeah, I don't know. Wow, such a powerful, incredible story. And I think, with this, what I loved so much about your work especially when I first saw it a few years ago it was like five years ago, maybe more, when I started to follow all of your work was that I could see how much you honored Dorothy, and I was shocked when I first looked her up and saw that not only was she erased from history for the most part, she was a footnote this incredibly powerful, influential woman with millions of fans, millions and millions of fans all over the country just disappears from history because she upset the wrong people and no one steps up to her defense no one, I mean. I could see the fear in her co-host's eyes when they were doing that post-show right after she was killed. I could see that they were scared. It was in their energy. It was almost like they were shaking because they were like, oh my god, because they had to.

Speaker 2: 1:02:17

You know nobody's ever mentioned that. That's excellent, thank you. That's right. I never thought about that, because even Northy shared with her. It was shared with them for research. That's excellent, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:02:27

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting when I noticed that when I was watching them. But you've helped bring Dorothy Kilgalen back to life and put her back in her rightful place in history, which is what you're working on now. What's your body of work will continue to do, and I think that's beautiful because she deserves a powerful place in our history.

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

So thank you, she sure does, she sure does. Thank you so much for having me on your program.

Speaker 1: 1:02:54

Oh, you're so welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:02:56

And I'll tell you, your listeners, reviewers, are lucky to have you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

Oh, thank you, Mark. If people wanted to learn more about your books and your many, many pieces of work over the years, where would they?

Speaker 2: 1:03:08

go. Markshawbookscom is the website wwwmarkshawbookscom. More about Dorothy is at the dorthykilgalenstoryorg and the reporter who knew too muchcom. And then my email, mshawin at Yahoo. Mshawin at Yahoo. And I answer every single email, no matter what it says. So please, if you have any information for me, send it to me and I will get back to you for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

Yeah, thank you, mark. You are an investigative journalist. Thank you guys so much for listening to or watching, depending on when you're catching the show Citizen journalist, so delighted to have had Markshaw on. Please go check out his books. If you would like to learn more about my work, please visit shamanisiscom and you can find out more about what I do. And if you like books that have a bit of mystery, you will love my new book, memory Mansion, which is coming out officially February 3 of 2024. Congratulations, thank you. It is the self-love memoir that reads like a thriller. It shares my journey from Tennessee Orphanage on the run from human traffickers, landing in New York City and becoming a PR pioneer by accident. Honestly, I felt like the forest gump of fashion at some point, and how I eventually ended up dealing with all the trauma and learning self-love. So that is coming arriving. I'll show it to you guys really quick because I'm really happy with the cover. Oh, wonderful, good for you, congratulations, thank you so Memory.

Speaker 2: 1:04:43

Mansion. I want to find a copy, good yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:45

You guys can order it now and it'll arrive February 3. Or if you're seeing this in 2025 or 2027, which I believe you will it will still be available. So go check out Memory Mansion.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

Thanks you guys, great, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:04:58

God bless and have a beautiful day.