Adapting to Change: Publishing, AI, and the Modern Author's Journey

Could AI be the next great disruptor of the publishing industry? Join us in our latest Citizen Journalist episode as we sit down with Barbara Richter, a journalism and publishing trailblazer. Together, we unravel the profound shifts authors have had to navigate, particularly since the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic. From pivoting to virtual book launches on platforms like Zoom to the burgeoning trend of self-publishing and personal imprints, we explore how authors find innovative ways to connect with their readers. Along the way, I share my journey of publishing setbacks and career transitions, offering a personal lens on the industry's evolving landscape.

We then shift gears to tackle the pressing issue of AI's impact on creative fields. Barbara and I dive into the complexities of AI-generated art, grappling with ethical concerns and the need for fair compensation for original artists. This conversation extends to the book publishing industry, where AI is simultaneously a tool for research and a potential disruptor of lower-order tasks. We stress the importance of adaptability and continuous learning for authors to stay relevant while shedding light on the often-overlooked business side of publishing.

Finally, we unpack the intricacies of social media promotion and ghostwriting for celebrity memoirs. Barbara and I discuss effective strategies for building an authentic online presence in a crowded digital space and the increasing value of true-life personal stories in an era dominated by AI content. W

Spiritual guru, two-time #1 best-selling author, and higher consciousness advocate Shaman Isis (aka Cynthia L. Elliott) is on a mission to turn the tide of the mental and spiritual health crisis with mindfulness practices, incredible events, powerful content, and motivational storytelling that inspire your heroes journey! Learn more about her books, courses, speaking engagements, book signings, and appearances at ShamanIsis.com.

Ready for a life transformation? Ready to bring your dreams to life? Then you will want Glowup With Shaman Isis: The Collection of inspiring books and courses filled with life lessons and practices that raise your vibration and consciousness. 

Ready for a life transformation? Ready to bring your dreams to life? Then you will want Glowup With Shaman Isis: The Collection of inspiring books and courses filled with life lessons and practices that raise your vibration and consciousness. 

Chapters

• 0:57 Publishing and Authorship in Transition
• 10:59 Adapting to AI in Publishing
• 23:36 Navigating Social Media in Publishing
• 29:34 Celebrity Memoirs and Ghostwriting Considerations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:57

Hi and welcome to Citizen Journalist. I'm your host, shalman Isis, also known as Cynthia to my friends and family, and I'm excited about today's show because we're talking about something I have never actually done an episode on, which is kind of funny considering I'm an author. We're going to be talking about publishing and the book industry and independent writers with Barbara Richter, who's a pioneer in journalism and in publishing. Hi, barbara, thank you so much and welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Cynthia, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about this. I know.

Speaker 1: 1:28

I know you know if you've listened to the show for long, you know we usually talk about a topic of some, you know an industry or a situation that's in transition, oftentimes affecting a lot of people, and we know that, well, publishing is going through something pretty transformative. Yeah, what are your initial thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 1:48

Well, so there's a couple of things that are happening right In 2024, we're four years out of the pandemic now, I think and one of the things that we saw in the pandemic, at least, what happened with authors was everything shut down. So, if you were trying, I had two books me and a couple other clients ghostwriting clients whose books came out or were slated to come out in 2020. And if they were slated to come out on a particular date, they got pushed and then all publicity just disappeared. So authors had to pivot. I'm sure, as Cynthia, as you know, is an author like you've got to reach your audience and the only person who cares about your publicity is you. I mean, other people do as well, but it's really no, she's being honest.

Speaker 1: 2:30

It is really you. People try to care, but they just don't quite get it.

Speaker 2: 2:35

I mean, it's a job for you, it's like your baby, so it's a little bit different. But authors had to pivot and they found that you know this medium Zoom was really the way to do it, and so you might remember when people had their books behind them and they were talking and they're trying to cultivate these audiences. We don't have to do that anymore, which is really nice in 2024. But it's being still used by a lot of authors as a way to reach diverse audiences they might not reach otherwise, which is really nice.

Speaker 2: 3:05

Another thing that I think we're seeing more of and whether it's good or bad we can obviously discuss is this push by authors to kind of bypass the whole traditional publishing route and create their own imprint or just self-publish, and I think that there's me. I think it's pretty exciting and I think we'll be able to talk about that a little bit because on the one hand, you're liberated from the constraints of getting a book proposal written sort of. You might still need to write a book proposal, but finding an agent, waiting rejection, you put it out there, but then the question becomes are you really comfortable with taking on all of that responsibility?

Speaker 1: 3:41

Yeah, yeah, no, you touched on a lot of things that I went through. It's interesting that you brought up 2020 and having books that were supposed to come out. I was supposed to launch a sustainable collection that I had spent two years working on and I couldn't, and that's actually what caused me to change careers. I was so spun at having failed because you know I as a high pressure. When we're type A sort of sort of type A sigma, type A, I'll qualify that you put a lot of pressure on yourself, and so I took it very personally not being able to launch. So I can imagine that you were trying to like it's like that disappointment, but we can't waste energy there. Let's just turn and figure out a way to make this happen. Is that what you ended up doing?

Speaker 2: 4:22

Yeah, and it was. You know, it was interesting because some of the authors I was working with it was some of the authors I worked with are not comfortable going in front of people and promoting their book. They're writers or they don't want to do that, or they have careers and they're busy with their careers, and so it was interesting to try and convince some folks that, like, you need to be the face Now, you need to step out of your comfort zone, and I can, I can testify to that. I'm, you know, I've been a ghostwriter for like almost 15 years and now I'm out and doing podcasts and hosting things like that and it's a very different, you know, mentality shift. So but you know, once people do it, they get comfortable with it. I think it just, you know, practice makes perfect, I guess.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I've spent 20 something years as a marketing and PR person. I've had two agencies and I actually really struggled to make the shift because I had done the same thing for decades into writing and teaching, and my first book came out in 2020, I think it was, or it could have been, 2021. The pandemic was still like messing with everything and I couldn't go about it the traditional way, and I'm kind of glad I didn't, because it was kind of a hot mess. I did it all on my own and there was really no one. People weren't really functioning.

Speaker 1: 5:37

I remember being in Austin and everyone was still wearing masks, but I wanted to share the way that I had, the methods that I had used to finally learn how to be happy, like. I was so excited to get that message out there. By the time I got around to my second book, things had changed a lot, but it became very obvious to me in the submission process. I'm hyper aware of things like companies at what stage a company is at and what they're dealing with, and I kept seeing a lot of publishing companies that had no team.

Speaker 2: 6:04

Yeah, Well, and that's that's true now today too A lot of it just slashing teams.

Speaker 1: 6:09

Oh yeah, there's all these email addresses that I was checking that aren't actually going to anybody and I was like, wow, these companies may some of them may be big, but they don't have the team anymore. And it's like, why would you hand your project over to people? You're like I'm all for whatever works for you, but as somebody who'd been in the business, it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I was like, well, I guess I'll just keep learning, because if I give my book over, I lose control. And on top of it, I'm handing it over to somebody that I might've hired for my agency, cause I did hire a lot of young people who worked in publishing PR and I was like they're just, they're going to have like 500 books to publish or to publicize or working on.

Speaker 2: 6:45

If it's a fall catalog, which is the busiest time of year for a publishing industry, you're one of many. Although you're excited because you're in the fall catalog, if you're in the summer you're terrified because everyone's on vacation, right. But for folks who are not self-starters, I mean it's it's like I don't know what that phrase is it's six twelfths of one or one half whatever. That is where it's like two sides of the same coin. I think um, I think that's the one um.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Because on the one hand, yes, you're giving away your um creative input and you're ceding a lot of authority, which is uncomfortable for you know type A folks and you know I can sympathize totally. But on the other hand, if you don't have a plan, if you are the type A person you're like I'm going to do this, it's going to be great. But you really do need to sit down and plan out like who's my audience going to be, how am I going to reach them, where are they, and then build a plan around that Like nobody's going to find your book, unfortunately, because there's just so many that are published every day. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:49

And some people just know how to work SEO better, and it doesn't mean their book is any better. It just pops, you know, and that's. It's a whole new language that authors have to learn.

Speaker 1: 8:00

Even if they're with a traditional publisher. Yeah, and you know I sympathize with that. I might be type A but I keep referencing myself because I'm an author.

Speaker 1: 8:08

I don't mean to do this in podcasts, but for people who are trying to learn, I actually really struggled because I had never pushed. When you're a marketing and PR professional like a long-term real professional, you wear the black suit, you are the magic behind the scenes. You are not supposed to be the star of the show, and I really struggled with that. When I had to make that switch to being an author, I was uncomfortable building a fan base. I was uncomfortable doing a lot of those things that don't feel natural to me, a lot of those things that don't don't feel natural to me. And, uh, I share that. To say that, you know, it takes practice. But I also believe that, regardless of whether you go with a publishing house or you're self-publishing, you have to build a brand for yourself a huge brand, build your tribe community and and work it yeah, yeah, so and and actually appear as a human.

Speaker 2: 9:02

I know, I know, like you can't get your AI avatar out there and talking for you. Have you tried that AI taking your voice? Oh, yeah, yeah, you know when.

Speaker 1: 9:12

I was doing Memory Mansion which came out about six months ago. I tried to do AI for the voices. I was, I live in manhattan and well, you know we talked about I live in new york's, in manhattan, I live in brooklyn.

Speaker 1: 9:26

What the hell used to live in manhattan. Uh and uh, the noise that my microphone was picking up. It did not matter what I did, where I went in the house, it was still picking up noise. And I was like, okay, I gotta get, I gotta get creative, because I was getting really burnt out. I was very, very stressed about cause I really cared the first book. I was like almost high as a kite on my life change and on my weight loss. So I was like, oh, let me just tell everybody the second one. I had really, I had really poured my heart into it. I had done a lot of healing, a lot of crying, a lot of like cathartic process. It was process. It was like a little baby and uh, anyway, I did, I tried the ai thing. I heard it and I was like, no, it's not now.

Speaker 2: 10:03

I know it will work, um very well, pretty soon, but I can still tell oh, you definitely can still tell I did it and it was totally monotone and it was, there was no inflection and uh, I mean I sounded like a zombie, but but it's going to change. I know Arnold Schwarzenegger uses it for his daily newsletter, that he does like a five-minute newsletter, audio newsletter, where he reads the newsletter that he sends to subscribers and at the beginning he says this is AI. It's not going to be perfect, but I appreciate that he actually tells you and I'm going to tell he's got some probably some good folks who are working. Oh yeah, you know he can do whatever he wants.

Speaker 1: 10:46

it's amazing what budget will do for you. It is amazing it is, but that's all right. I'm glad you brought that up because I got a lot of questions about and I didn't really care. You know when you when you sorry you guys, I'm making a lot of noise because I'm digging something up. Um, my book cover for Memory Mansion was AI generated, but I spent it took me probably somewhere between four and six months of continually and I'm quite adept at AI work in the field and it took me a really long time to get something. I've been around long enough to have seen a ton of art around the world and I needed something that really looked fresh and original. Although a lot of people have said is that a sci-fi book and I'm like, just read it, just read it. But I don't have a problem with me personally. I don't have a problem with AI I mean, this is a debate we could actually have Because I do have a problem with people not being compensated for the original hoovering of all the world's talent.

Speaker 1: 11:53

That was used to create AI, like I do have a problem with that, but I don't have a problem with AI because it's going to be a part of everything. It's going to transform every single industry and if you continue to hang on to having a problem with it, it's one of those things that you get left behind because you get rigid.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I remember we did a book I mean it was probably close to eight years ago and we were talking about things coming down the pike and I remember reading things like blockchain and AI and, honestly, at the time I had no idea. I was like, all right, we're going to write it on to the next. But you know the theory that the point of that the project was that it's coming and get ready for it and embrace it or you're getting. You know you're going to be stuck.

Speaker 2: 12:34

And we're seeing that happen right now.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Yeah, well, hollywood's getting decimated. Well, I think every industry will get on some level. I say decimated I want to be clear, I'm not trying to be a fear monger. To be clear, I'm not trying to be a fear monger. It will decimate the industry short term in terms of affecting the way that things have always, or have traditionally in recent decades, functioned, but it will evolve into a new way of doing things that, if you actually ride that through and keep yourself on top of the skill sets and learning and aware and savvy, you can coast right into an incredible job and career.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Right, If you have AI knowledge now apparently that's going to help you get a job, as if you have some knowledge of doing prompts or using it or figuring out when AI is being used or when it isn't. All of those skills are actually pretty in demand and it kind of feels like the Wild West because some of the skills that they're talking about, they're kind of evolving as we go.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, we were talking about how hard it is right now to train people for very specific careers, because we don't actually know what those careers will look like.

Speaker 2: 13:38

No, I think people just have to be malleable, be willing to learn, be willing to listen. Oh my God, we can apply that to so many things other than work.

Speaker 1: 13:48

it's so true I know hollywood is, um, it's been interesting. Uh, I do a couple podcasts and I wanted them. I've talked pretty extensively about like basically warning people and like you guys understand that that it's going to collapse much of the industry, um, but it'll be the people who are creative that see opportunity that will survive.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Yeah, I think so, and it's going to be in the writing community as well. I mean, you see, I've seen in, at least for ghostwriting, like low level content. Stuff has all gone to like AI. We even see folks who are doing primary drafts. Whether it's good or bad is up for debate. They're using AI. It is a tool. It is going to eliminate, I think, a lot of like lower order type writing functions. I know that people are concerned that, oh, it's going to take away thought. I don't think it's going to do that. I did read a study that said that AI is going to run out of original content to be read in a couple of years and I was like, oh, that's great, so now what?

Speaker 1: 14:52

Then it'll be generating fake content to give itself, which it's doing anyway, which is like the snake eating itself, like it's just going to get really and I love.

Speaker 1: 15:01

I mean, I work in the industry, so, yeah, I love this topic. I'm using AI in the research aspect of the book I'm coming out with September because it's great and this is just to help people. Like, I think it has to be that one of the problems in our society is that issues become bigger issues because people are afraid to speak about them openly. And the fact is, ai is a great research tool and if you're not using it for research, then you're an idiot. And if you're hanging on to this idea that things have to be the way that they were because that's the way they were done, then you're a part of the system that you usually was making the most money previously. So, like, I tell that to people about book publishing, and I think you and I touched, uh, candace bushnell and arthur miller and that was a real experience. Um, uh, so so incredible. So many great authors.

Speaker 1: 16:00

But I also got the chance to work with some lesser known names. I say lesser known. They were best sell new york times best sellers but I was repeatedly asked to buy large amounts of books in bulk before the book came out and it's look, it's perfectly legal when it was being done that way, but it didn't. That's when it dawned on me. I was like, oh my God, they're, they're engineering the bestsellers. I was so it made me. I was so disappointed. No-transcript publishing houses they're gonna make money.

Speaker 2: 16:48

I mean, ultimately and that's something that I think a lot of authors forget when they write a book proposal or query an agent like they. They are creative types, yes, but this is their job. So you have to explain to them how they're going to make money with your book and people get feel like that's unsavory. But you know, unless you want your writing to be a hobby, you know that's, that's kind of the the name of the game, do you think?

Speaker 1: 17:10

people should ask themselves the what are some questions that people should ask themselves when they're going to write a book, when they're going to write a book. Yeah, questions that people should ask themselves when they're going to write a book. When they're going to write a book yeah, if they want to be, they decide they want to write a book or be an author.

Speaker 2: 17:22

I think they got to think about why they're doing it and it can't be because you want to be a bestseller, because that's not the reason or it's going to. I think the top two things that I hear is it's going to be a bestseller and we're going to make a million bucks.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Welcome to publishing in 2024.

Speaker 2: 17:41

I would love for both of those things to happen, but you know I wouldn't be doing my job if I said, yeah, that's going to happen, and you know people don't like to hear that. But you really need to think about the why behind it. Who is this for? Am I going to benefit from it? Are readers going to benefit from learning something that I did or I learned? Or is it just a great story? And we all love great stories because they just make us better as humans. So I think that that's an important thing. And also, are you willing to put in the time and energy to reach the audience that you want to reach, because it can be deflating, even when an author says, I don't care, I'm just going to put it out there and I'm happy you do. You want people to find your book and you never know. Your book can help people. That's why we put them out there. They engage people. Who knows what could happen? If you're an entrepreneur, it could help you book speaking gigs.

Speaker 2: 18:37

So there's all sorts of ancillary benefits to getting your book in front of the right people so yeah, there really are, they're really and I think authors don't think about publicity until it's too late and they really should be thinking about it like at least a year in advance, if not more, and I would say more than that. If your book is taking longer to write because you got to get things in place and cultivate connections, and it's time.

Speaker 1: 19:05

That's one of the things that I, you know, if you read a lot of really great authors and you get sort of caught up in the story and you're like, if I put out a great story, it'll all work, and it's really hard for a lot of people to accept it. No matter how great your writing is or how unique the story is, if you're not connected in many ways it becomes more difficult. I, I made a personal decision that I wasn't writing books. Um, to be famous, some famous author it was. Uh, I felt the need to share the experiences for other people who might want to read about how I think it can be, you know how it can help them or how to help society in some way. Because, you know, for me, I think I had to get to that place where I got. I spent so much of my career dealing with fame that it was kind of like that automatic first thing. And then I was like but this is not actually appealing to me, like I want to be able to write what I really believe in and not make it about what's sellable, and that was a decision I had to make. It's like, you know what it's not for me that the writing the books is not about making a bestseller or making it be, although I've been very fortunate in that way, I've had to hit the hit the bestseller list of number one. That's amazing. It's such a coup. Yeah, you know, I was really unexpected. I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 1: 20:32

The second one was in the top five, including number one in its main category, and I was really happy about that. In the new one, but I think that that goes back to when I was trying to write to appeal. It did not appeal. When I stopped giving a crap about what people thought and stopped caring about the financial aspect of it, which sounds nuts, and I'm telling somebody who knows better than me the financial aspect of it, which sounds nuts, and I'm telling somebody who knows better than me that's when I started to resonate. When I finally let go of that automatic PR marketing mode, it's like, oh, I got to write something that's going to be appealing and it's like what I'm doing it again. Stop trying to be something that you're not Just be yourself.

Speaker 2: 21:11

You're absolutely right. Mario Puzo, in an interview, said once that so before he wrote like the Godfather and all that became hugely famous, he was writing novels and they were serious and they were literary fiction and you know, he felt that that was what the audience, the readership, wanted. And then he finally said you know what I'm going to write about, what I want to write about. Whether they like it or not, I don't care. He wrote the Godfather, Right grow the grandfather.

Speaker 1: 21:42

So right, uh, what's some other things that you uh see see going on in?

Speaker 2: 21:44

the industry. That you think are great points to bring up. What else is going on well, other than ai, which is just all everyone's talking about, I think.

Speaker 1: 21:50

I think talking about tiktok book talk right, I can't figure out how to get a book on book talk am. Am I missing something? Like I keep Googling it, like maybe chiclet kind of romance novels? Oh yeah, I noticed that, you know, and that does lend itself to a TikTok demographic.

Speaker 2: 22:23

You know younger women, and you can play with the filters and you can do all of these magical things that I think really help create that kind of an experience. But other than TikTok, I mean you've got Facebook. You do have to deal with Facebook, you have to deal with Instagram and deal with LinkedIn, but I would say also, it kind of goes back to those aren't and I heard this from an acquisitions editor.

Speaker 2: 22:48

One thing that a lot of authors forget is that these spaces, these social media spaces, are rented space. That was the term used rented space. You don't actually own those spaces. You go there and you can pay to play, you know, but what you do own is your own domain, like if you have your own website or your own brand where people come to you and where you can collect their email addresses or give them a free ebook or engage with them in some way. And I think that that's going to be really important too, because TikTok is hard and it's not yours, and who knows what's going to happen in the summer. If it's going to still be here, it'll be around. It'll be around, it will be.

Speaker 1: 23:26

They found a lawsuit that's going to drag on for a couple of years. I love that you're bringing this up because I think it's so important and it's something that I knew intellectually. But you know, I was caught up in what people were telling me I should do and it took me like two years into the process where I was like why am I spreading myself so thin, Like I have to just start putting out a newsletter and driving people to my website whenever I can to build that I, I'm, I'm not. I also have a big concerns. I don't believe that social media will be the wild west, that it was.

Speaker 1: 24:01

No, it's getting really yeah, tiktok was really cool when it first came out. It was even really cool like a year ago.

Speaker 1: 24:07

It's gotten really weird, uh, since they got in trouble you know, and now that they did anything to do that, but that's a whole other episode. Yeah, um, it's that they've turned and I knew this was going to happen. I knew they were going to have to start doing pay to play. And now I've noticed, with Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, unless you're paying them paying for a membership or you're paying for advertising it is incredibly difficult to get even the people who follow you to see your stuff, and I think that even just drives home the point more that to be in any kind of business honestly, to be a success, where you need contacts of any kind, you need to have a home where you can send people to gather their contact information, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 24:56

I mean, and I can tell you, with my new, my, my new company that we launched, I focused on Facebook and Instagram ads for like the first nine months and you know, you get a ton, thousands and thousands of views but nobody's coming over, nobody's converting, and it part of it is because you're just another one in a long scroll. What's making what's differentiating you, what's making them stop? And it's you know, they're not there and when you pay for an ad, yeah, then they're going to come, click over, but eventually they're just you're not necessarily getting the audience and it takes, it takes forever.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Yeah, and you need a shtick you need a shtick, and I'm not shticky, I don't think.

Speaker 1: 25:36

I'm shticky, no, no, no, I'm with you there and I'm so glad that you said that, because I refuse to forgive my language folks whore myself out or the way that I would go about things.

Speaker 1: 25:48

I'm not saying not be flexible or not try different things, but I'm not going to be a fear monger. No, I'm not going to provoke people emotionally. I'm not going to throw out, you know, scary sayings to get attention. I'm not going to bash the male sex to get people watching, although I've had plenty of ammunition in my life, haven't we all? Well, yeah, I know, right, but my point being that I can't. My personal style of integrity, which is not a judgment of other people, it's just my personal comfort, I just can't do that, and I would rather put out intelligent content that I'm proud of, what I say in it, that five people care about, than something that gets people fired up because it sets off their fear system something that gets people fired up because it sets off their fear system and it gets lost in the internet and it gets misunderstood or repurposed for things you didn't mean for it to.

Speaker 2: 26:44

I mean there is a place for social media, like. I mean I do try to post regularly but it's like five tips to beat writer's block and you know so and that is important for developing um like an authorial authority. That was redundant but you know, like your brand authority, um but but to do it with the expectation that it's going to automatically generate sales, I think is um is misguided, despite what all of the folks on instagram say, all the coaches who say if you buy there, I'm sure you can't hit with those on the time this is how I made like 12 million dollars doing nothing.

Speaker 2: 27:15

Women's yeah, no, those all the time. This is how I made like $12 million doing nothing women's business.

Speaker 1: 27:18

Yeah, I know. And all the billionaires who aren't actually billionaires, that one drives me crazy. I'm like please stop calling yourself a billionaire. You do not have a billion dollars.

Speaker 2: 27:26

But they wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Oh, I know.

Speaker 2: 27:30

It's manipulation.

Speaker 1: 27:31

They're tapping into people's lottery fever.

Speaker 2: 27:37

Absolutely, and it's slick advertising. It's a slick video. We're all watching videos now. I would say that that's actually another trend that authors are probably going to want to focus on if they're going to have their own website for their book or themselves get comfortable being in front of a camera because people do like to hear about what's going on. Or, like I had a friend who had a book come out in September and she was really good about having short little videos like maybe two minutes long talk to her audience about where she was in the research or where she was in the writing, and it was just a really nice way for her to communicate with them that yeah, the book is in progress. And then when she got covers, she was showing covers and it was just, it's not a lot yes, it's one more thing to add to like a never-ending pile but it was important and it really it helped her ultimately, when the book launched, to have a really nice book launch with some really nice sales.

Speaker 1: 28:27

Good, that's good advice. Yeah, the old, the marketing finding your niche within the niche, I wonder. We were talking about AI books earlier. I've wondered if true life, personal, real life stories will take on more value, because you know AI is going to be so great at generating things that aren't actually real, or I guess it will be able to write stories about things that actually happened. But it made me think will stories written by real people about their real experiences take on a kind of a niche within the industry, Because we know that the market's going to get flooded with AI written books?

Speaker 2: 29:11

Oh, yeah. Well, there was one, I think some human I feel weird even saying that but he had a book that he published under his name, but that was completely written by AI. So that's the question, like is it your book or is it AI? Why are you sharing it? It was, it was strange, but it's probably not the going to be the only one. Yeah, no, um. Well, I think we're seeing that trend already, with just the explosion of celebrity memoirs, you know.

Speaker 1: 29:36

I mean, I know and I love it when they're like, and I wrote every word and I'm like some, some, some of them.

Speaker 2: 29:46

It doesn't diminish the product at all, absolutely does not.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Oh, no, no I'm not talking about the ghostwriting, it's the don't lie. I know when people are lying, it's one of those empath things and it drives me nuts. A good friend of mine was telling me last night. He said remember when you used to say I hate it when I get lied to. And I was like, well, because I do, because people don't realize that I know. I was like that's a strange comment.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Yeah, that is a little strange. I mean, I would not like that either at all. At any time, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:14

People lie about really dumb things and when you know when everyone's lying all the time, it's really weird because you're like why are you lying about your height?

Speaker 2: 30:22

Right, we need Joan Rivers back to keep everybody honest, right, oh my God. But for some authors excuse me, well, celebrity authors, if you, if they were to say ghostwriter, I would I would wager that most of America, or at least their target audience, is not going to know what they're talking about, or if they give credit to somebody else.

Speaker 1: 30:48

So so that may be some kind of strategic play there and some people just don't, just don't want another person's name on the cover, and that's cool, that's yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:55

To each their own. I I the thing that never made sense to me.

Speaker 1: 30:56

I'm like why are you telling everybody you?

Speaker 2: 30:57

wrote it like. Just you know, I think the act of writing, like sitting in front of a computer and typing like that. I think that that can get conflated with the idea that it it didn't come from their head. You know, yeah, the ghost writer is just a vessel. Yeah, just an empty vessel sitting there.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Now I've met some really great ghostwriters and I think they definitely serve a very necessary capacity, because some people it's too much or too painful or oh yeah, Especially if it's a life story and especially if there's trauma.

Speaker 1: 31:27

Yeah, that was my memory mansion is about my experiences growing up in a tennessee orphanage and running from human traffickers and, and, like a lot of the, I was taking people through the trauma, the. For a reason that was not something that anybody else could have really uh written because it was all it was all stuck in my head. I had never written any of it down and no one's alive to actually speak to it, so uh. But. But I can imagine for a celebrity who's been through a lot of really big ordeals it's probably much easier to just give the story over to somebody who will take care of it like a baby.

Speaker 2: 31:58

Sometimes, sometimes some folks are hesitant and, as you know, you went through it it can be hard to to to sit down and you're not really opening the wound again, but you're touching it and that gets emotions that you haven't maybe felt in a long time. They come back and you remember things that you haven't remembered. So the approach and it's, it's. There's no formula right, you can't be like, well, if it's a traumatic story, then we're going to go this, that and the other way. The best way is to prepare, prep the author as much as possible here's what we're going to talk about ease into it and if they're uncomfortable, generally, like for me, I'll back off and we'll come to another, maybe try to come to it for another day or another angle, but that I can tell you from experience. I've had some clients who are just like I can't do it, yeah yeah, no, yeah, no.

Speaker 1: 32:49

That's actually really really interesting. I do too. I wasn't expecting to have a major. Well, maybe I did on a subtle level. It might be why I put it off for a while. Wait until.

Speaker 2: 33:00

I was more stable.

Speaker 1: 33:03

But I had never spoken out loud about most of it and by the time I got to writing the book I had like kind of gone through it. I'm going out on the front porch and just opening my mouth and I talked about things I had never told anyone in 40 years.

Speaker 1: 33:15

Like I just never told anyone because I was so embarrassed, and I did that one time, all the way through, from beginning to end, and my best friend was like who are you?

Speaker 1: 33:26

And then two years later I guess about two years later I sat down and I wrote the book and yet, as I was going through the years, I was remembering things suddenly that I hadn't remembered before. And I think the reason I'm bringing this up is that I have a healing process where you're listing out everything. It's a process that carries you through it so that you can see it for what it is, put it where it is, have a process for dealing with it and processing it energetically. And also I do want our emotional mastery for shadow work, which is where things that have happened have a cyclical effect in your life, so they're triggering you every time so say, a man's dismissive of your intellectual capacity or whatever and that's something that you dealt with growing up and you don't see that it's something that's continually bothering you. Now, the reason I'm saying all of that is that for people going through that process, that would actually be really helpful those two things the shadow work and the healing worksheet because it would allow them to process it while they're processing it.

Speaker 2: 34:30

It would. It would, it would and it would be in a safe environment. It's one that you control. You can come to it when it's good for you, right? You get to control the parameters of when you're approaching it, and that's and that's a big thing, I think with trauma writing as well as that, because you generally can't control the trauma, but you can control what you're writing about it, when you're writing about it and how you feel about it in the present time.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Yeah, so what kind of what projects are you work before we, before we get to how people can find you? Is there anything interesting that you're working on, now that you have coming out soon, that you uh can?

Speaker 2: 35:04

yes, that's about all I can say but she's like that's there.

Speaker 1: 35:08

There it is there it is.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Yeah, no, no. So the ghost writing is is going full steam ahead. We've got some fun projects. Um, I've really been actually working on the new company which is called diy book, which is the affordable alternative to ghost writing, because, um, as you know, having been in publicity, ghost writers are good. Ghost writers have a certain price point.

Speaker 1: 35:32

And they're not cheap, but they're worth it.

Speaker 2: 35:35

Yes, if you can afford it, and if you can't, you're kind of at the mercy of whatever is out on the Internet right now which is scams based in like Singapore or the Philippines. And for me, for every client I would book, I would turn away 10 because they couldn't afford me and I felt bad because I couldn't help them. So I've been focusing on this new company which takes a lot of the tools that I use in ghostwriting and gives it to people in a controlled environment Get a weekly writing prompt based on genres that they want to write about. So if they're writing about a life story, if they want to focus on military history or trauma or whatever it is, they'll get questions that will help them and some questions. So it's not just like one prompt, it's not like you know where were you born. It's you know who's the president, yes, but then you know detailed questions that get you really thinking, to try and replicate the kind of relationship that you do develop with a ghostwriter.

Speaker 1: 36:32

So that's, that's incredible. I really believe that if somebody wants to really change their life writing their story, even if they never plan on publishing, it is a big excuse me, a big opportunity.

Speaker 2: 36:49

Oh, it's super cathartic yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:51

I mean I think for a lot of people they don't see the patterns that are affecting their life experience because they've just become part of the way they go about doing things. This is what they saw growing up. This is how they're going to keep repeating it and it's absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Um, and actually I'll say that. So, for folks who do like life story writing with us, um, one thing that we've mentioned to them is you don't, you don't actually have to publish this, like this can be. You can print two or three copies and keep one for yourself and give one to your family, and and that's valid and that is an accomplishment, and I I don't think that that is out in the ether enough that people think that, oh, I have to write the book and I have to put it on Amazon. You really don't Like. Think again. Think of your audience. If your audience is your family, you know you don't have to go put it on Amazon. You can just print a couple and say here you go, tell me what you think.

Speaker 1: 37:42

Yeah, no, I think that's a great point and so true. When I realized I was going to eventually write my story, I was having a conversation with my mother and then, when my son was born he's 17 now I was like, oh, I have to write the story down now because it's so confusing. If I don't, nobody will ever be able to give him the story, which I think is something for people to consider. It's like it's not just an opportunity to heal, it's leaving a family legacy behind to help people understand where the family patterns can come from, which they may not be able to understand if the older relatives have gone on. So yeah absolutely stuff.

Speaker 1: 38:20

What a great idea for a business do-it-yourself books. If people wanted to check out the website.

Speaker 2: 38:26

Wherever they go, they can go to diybookus wwwdiybookus and even though I was talking about social media not being the greatest place, you can find us up there. We're on facebook and instagram at diybookhq, and I host a podcast too. Oh, it's awesome, writing for immortality. So, uh, we it's. It's another uh way to try and provide resources to writers who want to put their story on a printed page.

Speaker 1: 38:56

That's a great name and I think that actually is. I think that may be something. I may include that, maybe, in the title, because it's so true. That's really what we were talking about when that, when you're making that decision about writing this for writing, writing for immortality is a great reason we're all aspiring immortals, right oh, barbara, this has been such a fun call. I could I could keep going with this podcast because I love talking about books. Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2: 39:24

Oh, this is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me yeah, thanks you guys for listening again.

Speaker 1: 39:29

This is citizen and if you're not already subscribed, get with it. Intelligent listening, or viewing, depending on where you're seeing this is like. It's a pleasure and something that everybody should do. Ethicsandaicom and soultechfoundationorg and, of course, shamanicistcom, where you can find links to all my social media. Anyway, you guys have an amazing week and thank you again, barbara. I appreciate it and I'll speak to you. Okay, hopefully I'll see you at the event, that's right.

Speaker 2: 40:02

Thank you so much, Bye you guys Bye.